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Kindle support?
With the announcement of the new Kindle ereader from Amazon, I'm wondering about O'Reilly support for this? It looks like the ideal platform for me to read O'Reilly books. I have purchased many of your books over the years, but the sheer weight of them means that I don't carry any of them with me except when I'm actively reading one.
What is the planned support for this device? It looks like the best ereader so far and I would love to be able to purchase O'Reilly books for it.
What is the planned support for this device? It looks like the best ereader so far and I would love to be able to purchase O'Reilly books for it.
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3 people say
this answers the question
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We've now started releasing titles as eBooks, as you've requested: http://toc.oreilly.com/2008/07/30-ore...
I’m delighted
The company and 2 other people say
this answers the question
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We're glad to hear that there is interest in having books on the Kindle. We'll be quick to support it when Amazon allows PDFs, rather than requiring titles to be purchased only from Amazon in their proprietary and locked format.
It seems to me to be a major mistake by amazon not to support PDF. But it's a mistake that is an intentional "strategy tax." They no doubt see the benefits that Apple gets from owning songs in their proprietary format. But they miss the fact that the iPod was possible because of its support for the ubiquitous mp3 format as well.
Trying to control too much, you end up limiting the market. If Amazon supported pdf, this would be a big win for the device, and eventually they would sell enough materials in their proprietary format for that to be a valuable source of lock-in. But their first challenge is to get enough usage. And for that they need to support PDF. Then users can load their own documents onto the device.
The company and 4 other people say
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Inappropriate?We don't yet offer books for the Kindle, though we're accessing the program. In the meantime, we do offer an increasing number of our books in PDF format in whole and by the chapter. Just look for the appropriate purchase buttons on our catalog pages. And if you haven't already, check out our Safari Books Online service to access thousands of books from leading tech publishers, as well as a growing library of video content.
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Inappropriate?Thanks for the quick reply. Every time I check, it seems that few if any of the books that I'm interested in are available in PDF form. Safari Books Online is a neat idea, but I'm not spending over $400 a year to only be able to download 5 chapters per month.
In a given year, I spend probably $300 on technical books. Those books tend to be O'Reilly books. I understand the Kindle is new and you might not be able to support it right away.
But, please count this as a vote for future support as soon as possible.
I’m frustrated
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Inappropriate?I'd like to talk to you directly about what you're looking for in the way of content formats. Please send me an email w/ your contact info to allen AT oreilly dot com.
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Inappropriate?Please add another vote for O'Reilly books on the Kindle! I'm a Safari subscriber, but being able to purchase volumes for the Kindle would be a better choice. When I need my O'Reilly books the most, my screen real estate is full of the project at hand, and all the bookstores are closed. -
Inappropriate?We're glad to hear that there is interest in having books on the Kindle. We'll be quick to support it when Amazon allows PDFs, rather than requiring titles to be purchased only from Amazon in their proprietary and locked format.
It seems to me to be a major mistake by amazon not to support PDF. But it's a mistake that is an intentional "strategy tax." They no doubt see the benefits that Apple gets from owning songs in their proprietary format. But they miss the fact that the iPod was possible because of its support for the ubiquitous mp3 format as well.
Trying to control too much, you end up limiting the market. If Amazon supported pdf, this would be a big win for the device, and eventually they would sell enough materials in their proprietary format for that to be a valuable source of lock-in. But their first challenge is to get enough usage. And for that they need to support PDF. Then users can load their own documents onto the device.
The company and 4 other people say
this answers the question
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This is an old thread, but the issue is still current, even with Kindle 2. Amazon's lack of support for pdf reminds me of the the old Content vs. Presentation debate that raged on the web a dozen or so years ago. We've already seen some progress since this thread began with the addition of support for mono-space and Greek fonts, and with more updates, I'm sure that Amazon will sort out the tables issue the same way that web browsers did back in the mid 90's.
Ignoring format for a moment, once Kindle has adequate presentation facilities to properly render technical books, O'Reilly has the opportunity to deliver a quality digital product and delivery experience (via Whispernet / WhisperSync) to its customers via the Kindle platform. If Amazon chooses not to offer formats other than its DRM AZW for sale, I would encourage O'Reilly to take the higher ground and make your books available for purchase from Amazon using their DRM format. While this may seem like a step backwards from your position on open formats and DRM free media, providing a DRM sales channel for your media in addition to the existing DRM free formats demonstrates even greater openness, and everyone benefits. -
I must politely disagree with Mr. Snyder's comment. I would really like to see O'Reilly hold the line against Amazon's seeming insistence on DRM'ed e-books. I understand that such a stand on principle would essentially cost O'Reilly money in the form of lost revenue, but I think that we are at an important juncture for e-books and that what happens over the next couple of years will greatly affect the e-book landscape.
Amazon has shown that a viable and growing market for e-books exists. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Amazon has in a very short period of time greatly increased the size of the e-book market and has put it on the path towards acquiring the critical mass necessary for publishers less technologically aware than O'Reilly to stand up and really take notice. This, however, is no justification for handing the keys to the castle over to Amazon. One company should not and must not have a stranglehold on the e-book market. The DRM is on Kindle books not just because some publishers insist on it being there, but also because the DRM locks the consumer into buying his or her content from Amazon. This is bad for consumers and it's bad for publishers. If O'Reilly caves and allows Amazon to force DRM on content that they (O'Reilly) are willing to sell without DRM, then they simply give Amazon that much more power and control over a market that is likely to expand exponentially in the years to come.
For what it's worth, I own a Kindle 1 and the DRM has GREATLY limited the number of books I've actually purchased (probably no more than 3 or 4 in nearly a year of ownership). Almost everything has been public domain, Amazon freebies, or legally acquired copyrighted material. -
While I admire O'Reilly and mark42's enthusiam over open ebook formats, when I purchased the kindle, I was aware that it was primarily a device for reading DRM content sold by Amazon. There are nearly 1/4 million titles available in this format, and I'll be even more delighted when all of western literature, public domain or otherwise, is avilable for purchase at a fair price from Amazon for reading on my kindle.
It is wonderful that excellent content, like books from O'Reilly, is available in non-DRM formats, but that is not why I bought the kindle. If kindle happens to read open formats, that's fine for users who don't mind managing their content, backups, and transferrs manually. However, I don't mind paying Amazon for the convenience of 60 second Whispernet content delivery, Whispersync to other compatible devices, and automated backup/restore of content, my notes, highlights, and bookmarks when I decide to replace my kindle. I want these features for every book that I load on kindle (public domain or otherwise). I'm certain that I'm not alone.
I applaud O'Reilly for leading the charge in open book formats, but as a big O'Reilly book fan (I have over 50 hard-copy titles on my bookshelf), I am frustrated that this cause is standing in the way of me being able to conveniently enjoy content that I love on my preferred ebook reader. -
Just to be clear, you can get ebooks from oreilly.com (pdf, mobi or epub format) and load them onto your kindle. You can also buy PDFs of our books from Amazon. The biggest obstacle to getting our books on the kindle is the lack of support for tables.
If we sell you a book, and it looks like crap, will you be happy? Will you blame us, or Amazon?
We're working with Amazon on these issues.
FWIW, I do think it's important to create a multi-player ebook marketplace, but I'm a lot less worried about that than I was a year ago. With alternatives like Stanza taking off on smartphones, I don't think we have to worry about Amazon cornering the market with a DRMed format. In fact, because I think the non-DRMed formats will become more popular, I'm fairly confident that they will eventually drop their DRM.
So at this point, the only thing keeping us off the kindle are the formatting issues. -
Inappropriate?Tim,
Thanks for your response. I'm of mixed feelings about lack of support for PDF on the Kindle. There is a lot of PDF content out there and I suspect a future version of the Kindle will end up supporting it despite what Amazon may wish to be the reality.
In the meantime, I'm not sure I really understand your complaints. You effectively use DRM with your Safari service by limiting what customers are able to download and access at one time. Amazon does seem to support large variety of formats other than PDF. Given that O'Reilly is not in the habit of making your company's works available for free, it seems strange that you wouldn't be willing to support the Amazon "proprietary" format.
As far as I can tell, Amazon does not require you to sell your titles only through their website. You can make them available there as well as through your own store. I haven't investigated whether they allow you to sell titles in their AZW format elswhere or not. However, since the Kindle can read other formats (besides PDF), you could make the books available from your website in a format such as Microsoft Word that would allow customers to purchase from you and still use the books on a Kindle.
In short, I don't care who I have to purchase the books from. I would like O'Reilly titles to be available on my Kindle which will be arriving in the next few days.
Please answer for me:
1) How does Amazon require you to sell only through their website and only in their proprietary format. I may be missing this in what I have read from their Digital Text Platform documentation. I would prefer to be an educated consumer.
2) Why is PDF so important to you vs. other formats? That is, why not also support other formats?
Thank you for your consideration.
-Rodney
2 people say
this answers the question
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Inappropriate?I am a long time Oreilly book buyer and I would like to see your books on the Kindle I just bought. The Kindle offers adjustable fonts in a way that pdf can't. I don't like that the format is closed either, but the convenience and portability of the Kindle is hard to beat. --Ellen -
Inappropriate?Maybe the key is not O'Reilly books on Kindle, but Safari on Kindle. I've considered Safari just about every time I've shelled out $25+ for a book, not to mention having to go to a bookstore to get it or wait patiently to have it delivered.
But I've balked because I have so little interest in reading text on my computer screen from my office chair. And downloading and printing chapters, even if I could do more than 5 per month would end up costing almost as much as the book!
But imagine if I could access my entire Safari bookshelf wirelessly through the Kindle's browser. (I haven't used either the Kindle or Safari so I can't say what technical difficulties might ensue.) Assuming one subscription gets me both Kindle and regular browser access, that's a subscription I could buy. Yes, O'Reilly would make a little less money on the subscription by the time Amazon and Sprint get their cut. I'd pay $5/mo. more for Kindle access.
Just a thought...1 Comment Add a comment
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I've the same thought. Has O'Reilly any word on this. If not the Kindle (I am a DX owner), what about the Plastic Logic reader?
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Inappropriate?I own a Kindle and quite a few OReilly books. I would like to have the electronic version of most of the physical books I own. This becomes pretty apparent once you start using the Kindle and thinking of dragging a tech book around on the plane etc. I just purchased Head First C# and it's 3.75 pounds. Almost double my laptop weight. I like having this book at home, but I want it on my Kindle where I can read it on the plane etc.
If you don't like the idea of selling Kindle books alone please consider selling both the physical book and the Kindle version as a set.
I don't care about PDF support. It's clear to me that using the same PDF on a PC and a Kindle just would not work. Type resizing and picture formatting is better with the HTML translation.
I'd challenge you to buy a Kindle and put some of your books on it and try it out. Heck, I'll lend you mine if you like. I think you may change your mind. -
Inappropriate?You can use the build in "experiemental" browser to view web pages over the Sprint connection. Its not pretty and its slow. However, this is not going to do anyone any good when they are on a plane or outside the US.
I would not purchase a Safari sub to view on the Kindle through the connection. I would only buy books I can store on the Kindle otherwise its usefullness is lost. -
Inappropriate?We're trying to get our hands on a kindle. Amazon wouldn't give us one in advance to try out. So we ordered one as soon as they became available, but the one we ordered arrived DOA. So we're waiting for another one.
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Inappropriate?I have not purchased a Kindle yet but if I do the main reason would be to read tech books. I have a Safari subscription but find I seldom read an entire book because I do not enjoy reading for long sessions on my laptop.
If the Kindle turns out to be an enjoyable reading experience I would love to be able to have access to an large library ot technical books whenever I need to get caught up with new subject matter.
Having both the hardcover and Kindle versions would not be necessary for me since I would hope that the Kindle version could be a sort of subscription where it would stay up to date with corrections and other types uf updated material!
-Greg
PS: I 'read' all of my fiction via Audible. But I need to really 'read' my tech! -
Inappropriate?You can put PDF files on the Kindle device. The only thing is that it may not look the same if it's a fancy PDF. It's more for basic PDF files. They say it's not supported because you'll probably have some minor grammatical errors. You just have to e-mail it to the device since every device comes with it's own e-mail address outside of the one you use for your Amazon.com account. -
Inappropriate?I too am very interested in either oreilly books on kindle, safari on kindle, or better, both.
Right now, my safari acct is canceled, as I did not read from my laptop enough to make it useful. However, with a Kindle, I'd see new use there...
I’m very concerned
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Inappropriate?I would love to see support for Safari Online, it would be an amazing reason to keep my Safari subscription, since I tend to get eye strain and stop reading.. -
Inappropriate?I have a sony ebook reader (same size and type of screen as kindle), The pages in oreilly pdf's aren't formated for that size page, so while you can read half a page at a time in landscape mode, it's really a pain. Also there are a number of ways to translate .pdf -> .lrf which I beleive kindle supports.
The main issue will be formating the .pdf or whatever format for a smaller "page".
I’m frustrated
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Inappropriate?Tim, thanks for your thoughts. While I would prefer unfettered pdf, (i) at least one of my favorite O'Reilly authors oppose it and (ii) pdf is a disaster (formatting) on the Sony Reader. The Amazon Kindle is a much more useable product. Please don't hold out on principle -- take my money so I can enjoy the books now. -
Inappropriate?I for one would like to see all your books on the Kindle. I have corporate access to safari, but still find myself buying books. I see this happening less if they are not available on kindle -
Inappropriate?Has there been any headway made on this front yet? I've only been using my Kindle for a week, and the thought of having to cart around heavy unsearchable technical books already seems like a relic of a bygone era!
There are a bunch of ORA books that I already have in dead-tree that I'd be happy to pay-for again for my Kindle. (I'm deadly serious about this -- Of the four books I've purchased so far on my Kindle, I'd already owned-but-not-read three in deadtree!)
I’m sad
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Inappropriate?@rodbegbie: One of the remaining problems preventing a full adoption of the Kindle from technical publishers like O'Reilly is the lack of any fixed-width ("monospace", Courier) font on the Kindle. We've figured out ways around most of the other constraints, but we're reluctant to sell our content without the ability to present programming code properly (no carriage returns, spacing, vertical alignment).
I’m annoyed by Amazon
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Inappropriate?@Keith: Thanks for that explanation. It makes a lot of sense. I'm emailing kindle-feedback to add my vote for a monospace font.
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Inappropriate?@Keith: Thanks for the update! It's comforting to know that there is a technical reason why I can't carry around all of my tech books in my pack with me rather than a political one regarding openness of format.
I'd prefer be able to make the proprietary/open choice, but I'd rather have proprietary and closed than nothing at all :)
I'll go make my voice heard with the kindle team!
I’m happy
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Inappropriate?I see a lot of replies of getting O'Reilly books on the Kindle, but what about Safari? I wouldn't mind paying an extra 5 dollars or so a month just to access a Safari account from the Kindle.
I’m anxious
1 Comment Add a comment
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We've proposed that to Amazon, and will continue to suggest it, but they are the folks you need to be asking about this. They seem pretty intent on providing content that they control, and I think they see Safari as a competitor. But we'd jump on this.
That being said, all of the same issues discussed previously, about the Kindle's lack of monospace font support, apply to Safari on the kindle. -
1 Comment Add a comment
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Thank you for taking this step, is there anything we can do to encourage Amazon to support monospace fonts, I have noticed this is a real problem with more technical material?
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Inappropriate?We've now started releasing titles as eBooks, as you've requested: http://toc.oreilly.com/2008/07/30-ore...
I’m delighted
The company and 2 other people say
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Ok I've read through the link you have about releasing the titles. Let me make sure I understand this correctly. Even if we were to purchase the PDF versions of O'Reilly ebooks, converted them to Kindle format using Mobi PocketCreator, the tables and code samples still will not appear properly? Is that a flaw of the PDF or the Mobi PocketCreator? If it's the Mobi PocketCreator, then have you explored other products that may do a better job of converting your PDFs to eBook format? Here's some I found on one website.
eBookPro www.ebookpro.com
DesktopAuthor www.desktopauthor.com
Activ E-Book Compiler www.ebookcompiler.com
ebook Generator www.ebookgenerator.com
ebook Starter www.ebookstarter.com
ebookGold www.ebookgold.com
eBooks Writer www.ebookswriter.com
Adobe Acrobat 8.0 www.adobe.com
Rewriters Software www.writercash.com
Secure eBook www.secure-ebook.com
ClickLocker www.clicklocker.com -
@ferrelld25: We not happy enough with the quality of the outputs from PDF->Mobi tools to sell those files to our customers, but if you prefer the results please feel free to repurpose our PDFs (ePubs & Mobis) into whatever format best suits your needs.
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Yeah I agree. I just found that my Microsoft Press books came with their eBooks on the CD-ROM that comes with the books. How excited was I! Then my hopes were dashed to bits and pieces when I found that no matter how much I fix up the resultant HTML from the PDF conversion in Mobi PocketCreator, the Kindle still turns tables into mixed up values with no borders. I tried creating just a regular HTML file with a table and even though it shows as a table in my browser on my Kindle the tables go missing. I tried converting some of the tables to unordered lists using the ul tag and it just doesn't look right. Some lists may be ok if they have only three columns or less, but the more complex the table the less real estate I have on the Kindle to display it. Back to my 20th Century dungeon. :o(
Btw, not to mention the fact that Mobi Pocket Creator will even convert images, like text diagrams, in the PDF to text when they should have remained as images. Ha! -
Inappropriate?i would consider sawing off my left hand if i could get an unlimited safari subscription that was available on a mobile reader.
perhaps more relevantly, i'd purchase a $400 mobile device that was specific to safari. heck, probably up to $800 if the subscription price didn't go up too much.
safari user: 1758256-1743027
SAFARI RULES! -
Inappropriate?Kindle software 1.2 now supports monospaced fonts. I'm hoping this helps Oreilly to publish more titles for the kindle. Can anyone from Oreilly comment on this?
FROM: http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/custome...
"Improved character and font support: New support includes Greek characters and monospace fonts."
I’m happy
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Inappropriate?@iwantsatisfaction: While the lack of monospace fonts was a bummer before 1.2, we had a workaround. Unfortunately, our top problem with the Kindle continues to be the fact that it cannot render tables. Nearly every O'Reilly book uses some tables and the Kindle simply massacres them. This hasn't changed with 1.2, but if you want to see for yourself, we have more than 400 O'Reilly titles available in Mobi for your Kindle (along with the superior ePub and PDF formats) the O'Reilly Store: http://oreilly.com/ebooks.1 Comment Add a comment
This answers the question
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Has this been improved any in the Kindle 2?
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Inappropriate?Indeed it has improved in Kindle 2. It's still not ideal (for example, while constant-width font is supported, bold and italic variants are not). Ironically, the Kindle web browser does support all of these features (visit http://m.bookworm.oreilly.com from your Kindle).
We're currently testing our content on Kindle 2, and expect to begin uploading titles for sale on Kindle soon (I can't yet be more specific, unfortunately). -
Inappropriate?Please support Safari or your entire library on the kindle. Thanks!
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3 people say
this answers the question
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Inappropriate?Saw this on Amazon's site today.
The new Kindle DX supports...
"Content Formats Supported: Kindle (AZW), PDF, TXT, Audible (formats 4, Audible Enhanced (AAX)), MP3, unprotected MOBI, PRC natively; HTML, DOC, RTF, JPEG, GIF, PNG, BMP through conversion."
Right now you can only pre-order it so I doubt O'Reilly has one to test with as of yet. But it will be interesting if this new DX solves all our table formatting problems in technical books.
If you guys do manage to get your hands on one, please let us know if it works. Thanks! -
Inappropriate?I just pre-ordered the new Kindle DX. From the sample screen images it looks like it will be able to handle computer and textbook style formatting much better that the Kindle 1 & 2.
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